They had wonderful people. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was 16 going on 17, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Professor [Ernest] Wiggins. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did youdo you spend most of your timedo you reside mostly in London now? I mean, it happens in New York all the time for shows. Followers. But we have some legacy of where certain pieces went, and I was able to track some pieces down later in life. And because he has such an enormous collectionhe has one of the great Dutch drawings collections in America, and Dutch metals and bronzes andyou know, we havehe's a cabinet collector, so we can get down and focus on little objects, and we can go one by one by one by one. Were there collectors you were reading about or you met? They were the combat correspondents of their day, traveling and living with soldiers. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And actually go to the apartments where they were. Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. Or maybe donating it, if that was that quality? He bought the [Frans] Snyders HouseSnyders is the artist. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. You know, when a good picture arrives into that market, it creates a ripple, and it sells well. I mean, my favorite type of symposia end with, you know, almost fisticuffs between scholars about attribution. It was Antwerp, right around Rubens's first Antwerp period. I mean, I didn't specifically go to try to find the dealer who made a market in Chinese in Paris. JUDITH RICHARDS: Who was the director then? So, yeah, I mean, there are some instances, but those kinds of thingsso we're doing that, and obviously, we're open and exploring ideas of what the next show will be. I remember these place names. So that'syou know, the reality is though, that that painting will never come my way, so I have toto go back to this question, has my philosophy about this changed in the course of it? Located in the Donald W. Reynolds Center for American Art and Portraiture (8th and F Streets NW), Size: 5 sound files (3 hr., 57 min.) You can have that kind of one really good Dutch picture, and you can still have your Abstract Expressionism, and you can still have a modern space, a livable space. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, so. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't want to slight anybody if they think they played that role in my life, but it was a very solitary pursuit. Or you were philosophically opposed to it? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would say because in thein the space I was operating in, which was not a very high-priced space, the delta between, you know, the wholesale and the retail was so large, because, I mean, really, if you went into an antique shop on Beacon HillI mean, I did, and I bought a number of things therebut if you went in there, you had to really go there to buy something you really had to have, because the price was 3- to 400you know, three to four times3- to 400 percent of what it would be at auction. He is considered one of the foremost painters in 19th-century America and a preeminent figure in American art. Fortunately, I had a business that owned a big warehouse. Winslow Homer (1836-1910) was an American painter who is widely considered one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's interesting that, generally speaking, no, because, you know, the works on paper department has a very different policy on showing things. He said, "Who are you?" Those days are long over. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I always liked authenticity in the architecture. No, I was 15 and a half. Their corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. I brought an entire chair, a French chair, into the passenger cabin. I mean, certainly, Thomas Leysen, who's a phenomenal collector in Antwerp. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And again, it's very subjective. I'll sort it out on Google. And then we put that with a 1930s painting by [Tulio] Crali, you know, this sort of aeropittura of Modernism. Well, I mean, there's a smaller market, so it's something we have to adjust to. So I called my friend at Sotheby's, and I said, "What's the story?" It's the same problem. So then we took the picture up to the Worcester Art Museum, and we cleaned it, because it had been in dealers' hands. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I tried toI made every installation decision. Had you been thinking about it? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I think if I limited myself to sort of, you know, the quality of the paint, I think, in a way, that would be unsatisfying to me. And I got to the point whereand again, I'll beI'll stand corrected on this, because I know a collector in Boston who has a very strong opinion on what I'm about to saybut I ended my venture in Chinese export porcelain to my satisfaction, meaning that I couldn't go any further in that particular collecting area, other than to buy more expensive, singular examples of the same thing. Now she's at Milwaukee. It was a kind of seeding operation, where they would send objects all over the United States. They'reyou know, they're interesting folks to read about. Prep the spring onion by cutting the white part, the middle part and the green part and keep them separately. JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] But I mean, as you became, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. But, I mean, those areof course, I'd lend for any lecture series that made sense, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Right. It didn't say exactly, but it was a level. If there are other such wonderful stories to tell, keep that in mind; we'll come back to it. So it comes up at Sotheby's. Winslow Homer (February 24, 1836 - September 29, 1910) was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects.He is considered one of the foremost painters in 19th-century America and a preeminent figure in American art. JUDITH RICHARDS: In other words, being generous with attributions? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. But I was happy to help. JUDITH RICHARDS: it's kind of easy to figure out. And usually it would be a letter at that point. It's a very modern issue, because, historically, the American museum was created by private collections. And since I'm, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you recall his first name? I mean, but I didn't, you know, I wasn't trying to make myself a gadfly in the market, or even a gadfly in the curatorial world. I'm always the general on my projects. I remember it was very celebrated. You know, that wasthat's one distinguishing factor of the firm that I reallythat I came to have great comfort from. And only 10 years later did I find out that my father was so furious that I had left school that he had me fired from Gillette by telling them how old I actually was. JUDITH RICHARDS: spent five dollars and you get a thousand stamps? I liked a Victorian palette. And just, you know, wander around and pull books. [Affirmative.] They were phenomenal art collectors. [Laughs.] And they probably bought it the week before, because the trade was very different back then. And they still associate us with the great works of art, with the quality of the art, because Agnew's obviouslyunsurpassed in theI mean, 15 percent of the National Gallery comes from Agnew's. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? Someone mentioned the name Mark Fisch to meJon Landau. JUDITH RICHARDS: ancestry. So, you know, those are very exciting moments. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there an exhibition that you would love to see created that relates to what you've been collecting and discovering and what you want to learn about? CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no, no, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. And so, they're walking away from that equation with a very large amount of money, "And your picture is going to be part of a catalogue with 160 pictures in it.". And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? [Laughs.]. Or you found that going. They may not appreciate how much I'm absorbing from them, but, you know, I'm gratuitously stealing from them. And, you know, so I finally acquiesced. Hurricane, Bahamas, 1898 Painting. So I do have some sculptures in there. And I know that the story itself is extremely exciting, because to my knowledge, it's the largest commissionI mean, it's 37 four-meter canvases. Or whose voice will impact this collection that's sort of held for the public trust? He said, "Well, we'll make you a Corporator." Now, that's where the museum world and my personal life intersected, because of the Worcester Art Museum. Clifford Schorer is the Co-Founder & Director at Greenwich Energy Solutions. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, there you have, you know, five occasions a year for some sort of a symposia where people are presenting their latest book, their latest article, their latest theory, and, you know, I love that world, because that world is filled with incredibly passionate people with very diverse opinions. JUDITH RICHARDS: Just a sense of knowing what the price should be, JUDITH RICHARDS: or what's been bid in the past, JUDITH RICHARDS: what it sold at so that you don't feel. Everyone's retiring. [00:38:00]. I mean, I don't obsess over, you know, things that I consider decor in a way. But has there been an increase in some competition, or the alternative? CLIFFORD SCHORER: TheyI believe one of them asked someone who knew us mutually after I walked away, "Who is that guy? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You don't often find neglected objects, but luckily, this one was neglected because it was so recently found, and now it's sort of risen to the top of the pile immediately. So I've sold off most of my warehouses. Or. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It was a solitary thing. But he was a really interesting and strange man. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were you reading about the subject? Like a Boule chandelier. Not just multiple helmets. Largely self-taught, Homer began his career working as a commercial illustrator. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was interested in history primarily, if I had my druthers. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Agnew's is a different kind of firm, because it traveled through seven hands in the same family, so you have ayou know, I have an even bigger responsibility to make sure that whomever I hand it off toyou know, that they have the same appreciation for it as an asset and don't need it as a source of income. Olive subsequently married John (Jack) Arbuthnot who wrote some of the Beachcomber columns. I had businesses I was running to make money. By Claudia Roth Pierpont April 11, 2022. I mean, I. You know, milk cartons filled with books. Have they always been. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, of course. [1] CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. Last year, Schorer used a reverse . And he's deceased now. What we can do, though, is we can use the tools of taste-making to try toyou know, again, our market is so small that an expansion of one collector is a significant expansion. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, absolutely. So that's where, obviously, you know, this is coming to the end of the period when I thought that it was practical to buy these things. But, yes, there did come a time when I sold the house, where I said, you knowall the blue-and-white went to Sotheby's. It was very early. The reality was, it was cheap. Okay? Judith Olch Richards (1947- ) is former executive director of iCI in New York, New York. It's okay. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, learning about the Lombard artists, all the Lombard artists, and sort of looking at them and deciding which ones I thought had merit. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean you went down at 15? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Furnishings; hotels; office buildings full of furniture; artwork from lobbies; clocks from old buildings in Boston; you know, architectural elements that I salvage every time I do renovations on a building. The discovery hinges on the unlikely meeting of two men: Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer who specializes in recovering the lost works of Old Masters, and Brainerd Phillipson, a . He's a good director. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Clifford J. Schorer III, on June 6, 2018, at the Archives of American Art offices in New York City. He had that very sort ofhe had an idea about using modern architecture in all his buildings. I don't know how many there were that were unsorted. They would lay out their stamps and coins. Largely self-taught, Homer began his career working as a commercial illustrator. JUDITH RICHARDS: involve yourself in your conversation about this. But Professor Wiggins was ahe was, I think, the head of Fidelity's either Magellan Fund or Puritan Fund. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think that, in a wayyou know, buying the Cezanne, for example; that's not a picture I would buy for my own collection, but it's a wonderful picture to tell an important art historical story, that if Agnew's can tell it really well, then someone may respond and want the Cezanne, or someone may simply want the Cezanne because they want the Cezanne. I liked heavy curtains. And I saw my name alone in a category, and I was very shocked, because I had never said, "You may do that." $17. So, you knowand the money they made is what made the Rembrandts. American printmaker and painter Winslow Homer was a widely revered artist of the 19th century, and his oeuvre continues to captivate viewers today. JUDITH RICHARDS: What kind of institution were you in? And it's not really suitable for old art. So I would basicallythat's whymy base of operations was Montreal. I mean, there wereit was such a different time. It was basicallythey didn't tell me who bought it, but they told me it was reserved, and then shortly thereafter I learned the National Gallery in Washington bought it. I mean, if someone told me, every year, I'm going to buy one great Dutch picture, I'd say, Well, that's a fool's philosophy in terms of collecting. The Rubens House, the Frans Snyders House, the Rockox House. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. Now, we have to be very responsive if that changes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, no, it's not that long. But art has consumed all of the oxygen in my room. JUDITH RICHARDS: What year would that be? JUDITH RICHARDS: But thoseas your collection, perhaps you'd say, entered a mature phase. The mission changed; the vision statement changed; the facilities are undergoing changes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did he come before World War I? It's fascinating to me to see the roots of sea travel that were established by that point to move these goods around at incredibly low cost. I mean, I would say weI didn'tI always thought of it as a bit of a battlefield rather than a camaraderie. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, you're notI'm not going to be able to use the museum to improve my third-rate Old Master by donating my first-rate Old Master and saying, "This comes from the same collection." You're living in Boston. Or some of the 300? Take me through." You know what I mean. [00:38:00]. My grandfather, who was a very technical manvery poorly educated, but a very technical manhe could take apart any machine and put it back together. I think they have seven to 10 loans of mine, so there are some things there that, you know, they would like to have long-term, soand other things that they probably don't need necessarily, but they were interested in having for a particular purpose. [00:06:02]. arugula, potato and green bean salad . CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's the Art of Europe. He was a dealer and, you know, and an ennobled Italian, and it was in his collection. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There weren'tthere weren't. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wentI had a pretty bad high school experience. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There are otherthere are other areas that I'm interested in, and I put money into them, but they're not, sort of, simple collecting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: where you sort ofyou readyou know, I've read some really interesting studies of juvenile ceratopsians and how their horn formations develop. So that was fun, and I think that the institution now is so much stronger having that collection, because that tells the story of the history and the history of art history. He had eyelashes of copper. I mean, weyou know, since I've had Agnew's, I discovered one van Dyck sketchdiscovered, like from nowhereso, discovered one. CLIFFORD SCHORER: when I bought the company that year. So, you know, that was a good start and I enjoyed that. He collects in that era; he collects Antwerp painters, buys great things. It has a lot of history; it has a lot of business that it's done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And what they kept domestically and what theywhat the scholars and, you know, the courtiers had domestically was of a different level. But theyou know, certainly the paintingsthe early paintingsI know those roomsyou walk in, you can feel the humidity. I mean, everyone knew that it was, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you learn that as a child? "A loaf of bread is more than 29? I remember he was 90 when he bowled a 300. And so he gave me this Hefty bag and he told me to sort it. Or not. But I met a few dealers that I still know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I have two very young friends in Italy now. JUDITH RICHARDS: How did that happen? Other kinds of pitfalls that you might, CLIFFORD SCHORER: All of the above. Thank you! CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not smart enough to make an artist's reputation from whole cloth, soand I'm also not manipulative enough to make an artist's reputation by employing strategic curators to insert them into collections. You know, because she died in this plague. I mean, it was a field where I think I probably bought 300, 350 pieces total, and over the course of probably three and a half years. Clifford Schorer (1966- ) is an art collector in Boston, Massachusetts and London, England. New York? Why don't we talk about Agnew's? Literally, very, very inexpensive. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you donated the piece, or you donated the funds for them to purchase the piece? I mean, it went from, you know, plastic box in Plovdiv to now, you know, altar throne in the Sofia National Museum via the London, you know, RA show on the greatest bronzes. When he bowled a 300 between scholars about attribution by [ Tulio ],. United States chair, into the passenger cabin ( 1947- ) is former executive of! 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